6/16/2007

My sister, Anne, and I....

My sister Anne and I had a long discussion over the telephone this morning on the topic of sexuality. The discussion took several turns, as I think she feels (or argued) that sex is natural and good and I think it can be great, but it can be a very dangerous thing also--everything your mother warned you about and a whole lot more dangerous. She said "well, that might have been your experience." However, this is not experience speaking, but theory and evidence. When the homicide records were examined in Canada, as one example, it was found that many of them were related to sexual relationships, in the sense they were done out of sexual jealousy (killing her or the new "him") or rage or desire to impress, or whatever.

I wish I could remember the twists and turns of the argument, as they were quite interesting, but I do remember both of us agreeing that there are only a few ways that societies have devised to keep these strong emotions in check and that is restrain males, which is difficult and can be costly (requiring a police force, legislative system, judicial system, army, navy, marines, etc--you get the point, no?). Restraining females is much easier and certainly cheaper, probably because, at least at one time, we understood the necessity of such restraint, in that, in the end, it served our purposes and protected our fragile kin (children, elderly parents, grandparents)and kept men around who provided for us and our kin/children. The thinking that inspired the feminist movement was that such restraint of females, particularly of their sexuality, was "AWFUL" and that restraint would no longer be accepted. But, I digress. We did not talk about this.

Anne was telling me about visiting the art collection of the Mormon church in Salt Lake City and how she was a bit surprised to find many paintings of nude women, which she said the curator told her had been commissioned by Joseph Smith, who sent many morman boys/men to France to learn to paint nudes. She thought this was great, but I said he must have been a dirty old man and polygyny was not just an accident. The bottom line issue here is to ask what arouses men sexually. As biologists often argue, human males are hyper-sexual, they are fairly easily aroused. Most of the men we know were taught, as boys, to restrain themselves to some degree, at least in public. They are not aware of this, nor are women, but we as females reap the benefit of their restraint. The problem is that there are many men who were not so taught, or who rejected such teachings. These men are dangerous to us. They may not rape or kill the woman who is scantily clad, but they may well rape or kill the next woman they see (when they also see opportunity to get away with it). I said that an irony for me was the fact that the "restrained" males were the ones who fought for freedom of the press and freedom of expression, as they know that they can see explicitly sexual paintings (for men this may be a nude woman)and probably not rape anyone, although they may be hot to trot when the opportunity arises. They are not the dangers, the other males are.

She said that she bet that Mormon men, who she admires for their love of family, watch (and are not discouraged from watching) pornography (although we both rejected the argument that most horrible crimes are committed by restrained males who burst their bounds--where is the evidence?). This watching pornography argument may be true, but it seems to me that if you want to promote the spirituality of love, and devotion to family, you walk a risky path when you turn to eroticism. It seems dangerous that a male would have sex with his wife and just see her as a sexual object, not as a fragile, complex,precious person he loves. To me he should be conscious of her as a special person and pornography is not about that. This may be one of the dangers of pornography for men and perhaps even women--it is about sensation, not about social relationships that are committed. Yes, I can just hear the arguments fall down upon my head. Well, we watch....and we love each other. Well, I stand by my argument and if you are really honest with yourself you will see that I have a point. The emotions related to sex occur because sex is so important. They are powerful emotions. This does not mean that unrestrained they are necessarily good. At least females in other species have oestrus, limiting the sexual opportunities available to conspecific males.

This to me is the dilemma: restraint or freedom. We have a lot of freedom in this country. Woman and men are not very restrained. We have freedom of speech, sexual freedom, drugs, whatever and we wonder why we have problems. Those problems are probably the price we pay for the freedoms we think are so important. There are always consequences to every decision we make.

Now we should think of the counter argument to my own thinking. Any ideas out there?

10 comments:

Anonymous said...

Let me see if I can suss this out. Is one of the reasons sex is so compelling because it is so dangerous? It is perhaps the highest good and the most holy of sacraments and equally has the possibility of being the most degrading, disease promoting, family destroying, war causing, horror the world has known. It is all about sex, really. What a way to design reproduction. More proof that god was either not all powerful or not all good. Small conservative communities manage to control sexual behavior better than the large, anonymous, eternally boring suburbs. The rise of the sexual revolution in the sixties was no accident, it was in part the result of the massive move to suburbia and the isolated life that resulted. No village to raise a child here.
My argument wasn't that nudes and porn are good: they just are. How do we make the best of it? Manage distribution, status laws. prison for all males when they reach 13. Hell, we can't even define it. But freedom trumps nudes, here. We may risk the occasional rape, pillage murder as an after thought but that is for the police and the courts to take care of. What shall we do about porn? Perhaps, Carrie Nation like, we should invade video shops and those ubiquitous places on the outskirts of every town. I think capitalism will raise it money grubbing head and arrest us and support the porn people. Raise you sons and daughters right. It all goes back to that doesn't it? I never knew any of this stuff when it mattered and now as I enter my golden years when it is all but useless, I learn I had power. What a bummer.

The Ancestress Hypothesis said...

In my mind, the reason we have sex is that we would not have the "begats" without it. The reason we have sex is for reproduction. I argue that mothers were the ones who invented culture, including restraint, in order to protect their fragile and vulnerable, and highly costly, children.

We don't have sex because it is dangerous, although that may be used to justify some rapes, we have sex because we are wired to have sex because we are here because our ancestors had sex. We are the descendants of thousands, millions of generations of sexually reproducting critters.

The problem, I guess, is that we do not have just a little rape, or just a little murder. If we compared ourselves to others, we have lots of it.

I do think that much of our crimes are sex related. I would even guess that some of the school murders, committed by males you note, are because females were not attracted to them and this was a way to attract female attention. You have to wonder why such rage built up.

I would write more, but I have to go help teach restraint to my grandson, by taking him to sunday school, even when I know he will live in a world where it is treated with disdain and criticism.

Anonymous said...

Nothing like overstating the obvious. We have sex because we have sex. We also have sex because we have sex because it is fun/exciting/dangerous/spiritual/quirky/ ad infinitum. If it made us sick we would still have sex. Aids and STD's come to mind. If we hated it and it made us vomit violently the second we thought about it we wouldn't have sex. A Clock Work Orange, comes to min.

Anonymous said...
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The Ancestress Hypothesis said...

I didn't say we have sex because we have sex, I said we have sex to begat -- to reproduce. There is a difference between sex and reproduction. Also, we probably wouldn't have sex if it felt awful. The problem is that sex feels good because "feeling good" inspired our ancestors to do it. If they had not, we would not be here. If it had been painful, they probably would have avoided it. We might be better off if it felt awful, but then we would find something else to obsess about.

Anonymous said...

Ya, and we eat only to stay alive. Life is much more complex than all of that. In the pure state of the lab we could say we have sex to beget and we eat to stay alive but that is begging the question. We eat because it feels good. We were made to feel good about most things we have to do. That is what was so good about this design. There are consequences good and bad for all of it. I don't have a problem with that at all. Seems fair to me.

The Ancestress Hypothesis said...

Huh? PURE STATE OF THE LAB!!!!! On what planet? One thing that is such as heck clear is that no pure state lab will EVER GIVE US ANY ANSWERS ABOUT HUMANS AND THEIR BEHAVIOR.

This is not a joking point, it is crucial. Sex and eating (e.g., fats and sweets) feel good because they are crucial for our survival and reproduction. Fats and sweets are compact packages of calories. Our ancestors ate them, and responded emotionally to them, and survived and out-reproduced those who are NOT ancestors of ANYONE because our ancestors got more calories that helped them survive, reproduce, and care for costly children and kin. This is all good, except today when over half of our population, driven by those same ancestral fat/sugar drives, are obese. Now those drives are killing us through diabetes, cardiovascular disease, heart disease...shall I go on about what you proclaim is a good design?


We have sex because those who in millenia past were indifferent about sex and who had no response to it, failed to reproduce. We are the descendants of those who did reproduce and enjoyed it. The EMOTION came about because the BEHAVIOR WAS SO IMPORTANT.

That is all good and nice, except those same genes that made us interested in sex and love the feeling now also rape.

Emotions don't exist for their own sake, just as there is no such thing as art for art's sake. If I cannot get this important point across, all is lost.

Saying life is complex is in one way correct, however, it is also to caca on science.

Anonymous said...

Of course I know that. It is obvious to anyone with a brain. I am just stating what it is now that we can think about sex and food and obsess about it if we are so inclined.

The Ancestress Hypothesis said...

Actually worms have brains, they can learn some interesting things; however, your point is well-taken. We need a code to distinguish between OO (our opinion) and OO (others opinion). What about WW (our opinion--words of wisdom) and DS (others opinion--dumb stuff)?

Anonymous said...

Let me leave this discussion with a quote from Geoffrey Miller, who says it all quite well. "We don't seek reproductive success directly; we have always sought tasty foods, which tended to promote survival, and luscious mates, who tended to to produce bright, healthy babies. Modern results: fast food and pornography. There it is. Let's talk about something else now.